This thread is permanently archived
Roguelikes
| Minecraft is nothing like a roguelike. Roguelikes gotta be:
1. Grid based
2. Turn based
3. Perma based
Anything without all 3 merely contains procedural or permadeath elements, but does not fall within the roguelike genre proper.
| The way I see it though, is that the separation of roguelikes and roguelites aren't really necessary, but rather that people under the banner of "roguelikes" want a complex rpg-esque gameplay that most roguelite don't offer, or they just want something as close as possible to the original rogue game. For that matter, I've seen games like ADOM and Stone Soup to gauge what a classic roguelike might look like. It features eating and survival quite prominently which leads to the
| Minecraft conclusion.
| I wrote the second paragraph before anon replied.
| But yea, I think my point still stands. I just find that the definition is rather arbitrary. I understand that people would want turn based and grid based and that something without these two would be an entirely different game, but the other implication of being roguelike such as ascii graphics and key commands seem to make it hard for more modern roguelike like ToME to prosper.
| So I suppose my question is, what is it about text based anything that seems to appeal to some people that developers seem to abandon better gui design practice in favor for this? My case in point would be ADOM and Caves of Qud. With the modern ADOM, modern gui is there but learning key command and text based UI is still necessary, while in CoQ, more modern UI seems to be planned but in a rather low priority on the list.
| They aren't choosing ascii/tile art because it's better, they're using it because their games have such complex systems, with so many different monsters, items, etc. It would be ridiculously expensive to model using modern graphics.
As far as UI thing, it's partially because many roguelikes allow for unique verb combinations that would be cumbersome to put in a more streamlined interface, and partially a product of the times.
| Caves of Qud, Adom, etc. All started development pre-90s. Redesigning the interface in old games like that would be a laborious task, they'd practically need to rebuild it from the ground up. There have been projects to make those oldschool roguelikes have a better UI though, like the Nethack variant Nethack 4(which I love.)
I think if you gave nethack an improved interface and good graphics it'd be the best game ever, but it's freeware, so that kind or funding isn't happening.
| Here's kind of a cool video that discusses the value of oldschool overly elaborate UIs like in nethack by the way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjuTyJlgLJ8
| >>145272
Roguelikes and roguelites are two different styles of games. They have a couple elements in common but that doesn't mean the distinction between them is arbitrary. As an extreme and slightly exaggerated example, it's like someone asking for an rpg and you tell them to play CoD because they're both first person, have shooting (bows in an rpg), and feature customization.
| ^Agreed
>>145285
Sure, ASCII graphics are not necessary for a game to be called a roguelike. A lot of roguelikes got tile sets and decent UI later anyway. ASCII is just easier to do with lots of content. Key commands is something I have mixed feelings on. Games like Stone Soup provide perfectly fine UI and I still find it easier and faster to tap away at the keyboard. Sure, more of a learning curve, but also more efficiency. I think both options should be present in a roguelike.
| Overall I'd say that >>145269 is absolutely correct. I might add some things to the list (like randomization of certain elements, i.e. floors and minor things like potions/scrolls), but later, when I manage to get to my PC. Long story short, though, I think rogulikes and "roguelites" should stay separate. Even then, "roguelite" should be a secondary genre at best, I can't in my right mind bundle up Rogue Legacy together with FTL and with Binding of Isaac and call them same genre.
| Alright so from what I gather, Roguelike is more of a complete genre while Roguelite is a catch-all term used to describe certain recurring mechanics (permadeath / no save and randomization) in games.
Well, that's a distinction I can get behind. Now I can sleep soundly knowing that Don't Starve isn't a roguelike.
| Still, I feel like there is more to it. Like some games seem to have a recurring feature such as item ID-ing, b/u/c status, starvation, prayers etc.
Meanwhile there is a game like ToME that focuses only on combat and lore. No starvation, lock-picking, bashing trees, gardening, etc. Just pure RPG battles.
Does that mean ToME is less roguelike? Or is it simply a different breed?
| ToME a roguelike because of the core gameplay. Hell I'd argue it's an Angband variant.
I think what makes a roguelike a roguelike isn't the procedural elements or the unidentified items or the hunger system, it's the core gameplay of moving around on a grid in turn based fashion with the threat of permanent consequences. If we were going to preclude a game like ToME then how would games like Smart Kobolds or Hydra Slayer, which are popularly considered a part of the genre, fair?
| I just pointed it out because some Roguelikes feel so cryptic with its system that I assume it might be part of its appeal (the difficulty and complexity to be precise). I've heard about Angband but I don't know much aside from having some distinguishable elements. Haven't heard about the other games. Would check out later since one of them is on steam.
| To > Why classic roguelike still exists
I read somewhere that classic-style ASCII roguelike are especially playable to blind people, since their screenreader can read the tiles out loud.
It's still hard to play, but it's playable and there are communities surrounding it.
| >>145564
I'm not entirely versed in the genre yet. Would something like Pokemon Mystery Dungeon be called a roguelike?
| I'm torn between Buriedbournes and Darkest Dungeon. Really challenging, but also rewarding.
| >>145753 yeah. It's one of those games like Shiren the Wanderer. It doesn't have permanent death, but it might as well since you start from 0 when you die.
| >>145786
Well, no, you don't necessarily start from 0. You only lose progress in your current dungeon (which is not all THAT detrimental) and you items (which, I believe, are still recoverable).
| ^In PMD at least. Shiren is much, MUCH less forgiving.
| Crypt of the necrodancer is really good and very hard
| Oh Necrodancer is an interesting one. Would that be considered a roguelike as opposed to just roguelite? It has grid-based dungeon and turn-based movement
| >>146246
It's only really turn-based with one single character, otherwise it's almost realtime -- if you stand still enemies still move. Idunno, it's still a blend of roguelike and a rhythm-based game.
| >>146866 Yeah, this.
>>146761 Also, this is a sort of bonus character/mode. The "main" game is rhythm-based. But yeah, it's still very close to a roguelike. Although it does kinda lack in variety.
| Chocobo's dungeon is good shit
| >>147014 was that really rougelike? I never played it. I'm always assumed it was a platformer in lieu of Chocobo Racing
| >>147057
It is roguelike-ish. Pretty much similar to Pokemon Mystery Dungeon and Shiren the Wanderer.
| >>146866
Ops, my brain skipped that sentence!
>>145266
Others roguelike that I like, for ANDROID, are:
Pixel Dungeon (the Shattered version),
Pathos (Nethack ~clone),
Harbinger (this has Faster Than Light feelings).
| It doesn't have to be an RPG or turn-based to be a rouguelike. I know that the definition of roguelike is a game that is similar to Rogue, but now it's a more open genre. Basically if permadeath is a big thing in the main game (not hardcore mode or some shit like in Minecraft), it's a roguelike. A roguelite is something similar to a roguelike, but the permadeath is less important than in a full on roguelike.
| >>147224
Permadeath was a big thing in the older arcade and console games, too, even though they had nothing to do with roguelike. The genre has clearly stated staples, it's just it became sort of a buzzword when used incorrectly.
| Play dcss online or try buriedbornes on mobile for a fresh take
| >>147309 I know, but that's just how it is. It's the same thing with hacking. What most people believe to be hacking is actually cracking, and now everyone except for a few programmers just call it hacking. It's technically wrong, but getting the world to call it cracking instead of hacking would be way too difficult because of how fucked human brains are, so we just go with it.
| >>147413
Well, the fact that it's true doesn't mean that it's right. :^)
The canon for Roguelikes is still ADOM, Angband, Crawl, Nethack, and Rogue. Check out the Berlin Interpretation of what a roguelike is supposed to be (at least the High value factors).
The term "roguelite" is honestly popular enough (definitely more popular compared to cracking, I'd say), so stuff like TBoI, FTL, Rogue Legacy, Enter the Gungeon, etc. should be called that at best.
| >>147423 While that is true, I'll still just call it a roguelike. I see no reason in going around correcting people who use the word roguelike, so I'd rather become part of the problem, when the problem is so big that everyone is wrong about it you know. I say hacking. I don't see a reason not to. I know it's cracking. My friends know it's cracking. I still say hacking, because that's what people us to refer to it, just as I say roguelike, because that's how people understand it.
This thread is permanently archived
| I've been getting into the niche genre lately. I love the idea of randomized levels with varying degree of permadeath-ness. What I don't like though, are messy keyboard commands and ascii graphics. I've been trying to define a line between roguelikes and roguelites to find a middle ground, but the deeper I go, it just got more and more blurry. For example, Minecraft should be a roguelike in the sense that it's randomized and features a permadeath. What do you think, though?