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Russian-Ukrainian tension tests the each NATO member's willingness to follow through
| Why Russia continues to station their soldiers near the border, and what their goal is, is something we can read about elsewhere. What I want to know is what is your country's response to this, and what do *you* think they should be doing?
| I hope there's a war so I can stay in a western country and apply for war refugee status (*ᴗ͈ˬᴗ͈)
Putin-san ganbare!!
| I think my country should join nato already. It's a defensive alliance for countries that respects democracy and freedom, wich is right up our alley. Fuck dictators and fuck Russias foreign politics.
| Wanna Putin to reconstruct soviet union
| >>832197
>It's a defensive alliance for countries that respects democracy and freedom
Is this meant to be satirical?
Some important NATO members were and are involved in offensive wars and they also give a shit on democracy and freedom. Just think about the most important NATO member USA which systematically removed even democratically elected politicians and attacked other countries against international law. Also France, Turkey, Hungary and Poland did and do a lot of shit.
| >>832305
Unfortunately not. Putin is just an russian imperialist. He holds no revolutionary ideals at all. His policy is much more reasonable and pragmatic than other imperialists, but in his country social-economical issues are rising like in all other capitalist countries, which strengthens extremists of any kind.
| I would say the whole conflict between russia and "the west" is staged by corrupt oligarchs on both sides, who distract from the real problems by pointing wild across country borders.
If they let it come to a war I don't really care which country was starting it and which will win or loose, because this isn't the way how I see the world and people. The real conflict is between workers and capitalists, and it seems the capitalists are about to win - again.
| >because this isn't the way how I see the world and people.
If you know you are being subjective then just drop from the high horse, russia has it's own interests, it's not a c9nspiracy to maintain "capitalism" supreme.
| >commie faggots
https://youtube.com/watch?v=y9W83vWUjc0
| >>832453
It's a fact that national interests aren't automatically working peoples interests. It depends on who rules the nation. And in capitalism the nation is ruled by capitalists. They only allow democracy and liberty as long it doesn't directly oppose their class interests. As soon socialist or communist ideas become popular they corrupt their leaders and support any kind of ideological enemies including religious fundamentalists, racists, nationalists, etc.
| And because capitalism is built on false assumptions about reality (eternal growth, homo economicus, social darwinism, the invisible hand, etc.) and massive contradictions it will always lead to a situation of crisis that will escalate at some point. As soon thing get worse all liberal, progressive and social revolutionary achievements that were made in (economically) better times, will be sacrificed. It's so sad that so few people understand the nature of the system they live in.
| >>832472
And all Zhirinovsky does is spreading neofacist propaganda lies, historical revionism and really cheap populism ("free vodka for all"). He has no clue about anything except about how to fool people.
| i am russian and i have no fucking idea what's going on most of the time
this country is a circus and the government bodies is an absurd theatre performance nobody from the audience got a pamphlet for
| >>832477 everyone is a capitalist in capitalism, democracy is something that exists independent of capitalism and becomes corrupted because leaders want power.
| >>832478 you don't seem to much either since you seem to think that capitalism is the reason resource crisis can happen and not the fact that we live in world with limited resources that makes so no matter what we do we will eventually run out and have to either move or die.
| This isn't about capitalism it's about people with a goal and the will to fuck with others if it benefits them which will be a problem no matter the society or the system, anarchy can't be maintained, feudalism is dead, facism was corruped, nazism was made to be corrupt, socialism was accidentally made to be corrupt, comunism was never achieved(and will never be) and capitalism is just as exploitable as any other system out there, people are the problem not the system.
| >>832489
>this is about people who makes it their life goal to just fuck with others, i know my shit trust me on this guys no reason to discuss anything else
*facepalm*
| 1. Don't reply to someone you think is retarded.
2. I don't want to know about all your political opinions. Keep discussion in the topic of foreign policy.
3. Go touch some grass.
| >>832197 It would certainly be ideal to have all of Europe join NATO, and subsequently smoothly transition to a larger European Union, but alas local issues, probably moreso than pressure from the major powers to the east, tend to prevent much progression towards being in such an alliance. I mean, have any of the Balkans recognized Bosnia yet?
| Imagine not understanding the basic concept of greed and blame it onto capitalism and society, some g/u/rls do be that wild.
| >>832567
Imagine being deluded enough to think that some unemployed shitposter(you) knows better than Max Weber
| >>832576 listen, to be fair, no human is perfect and one man is not capable of "fixing the world", specially when all they do is writte a social theory, at the end of the day it's all speculation and subjective opinions and solutions using some historical data, Marx, Weber, Mussolini, Hitler, while really smart they arent unquestionable thinkers free of bias and mistakes and if we look at our history we can see the flaws and failiures of the systems they came up with.
| Shit, who writes "writte" with 2 T's.
| >>832581 >>832581 >>359685
Why don't you lecture us some more about how all the worlds economic problems are solely created by people who made it their life goal to just fuck things up for no discernible reason. Retard.
| >>832583 I think you heavily misread it.
>it's about people with a goal and the will to fuck with others if it benefits them
Give it a better read and think about it, it's not to fuck things for no discernible reason, it't to fuck things for others as long as their own goals are achieved, be that goal, wealth, power, respect fame, ego, etc, >>832567 said best, it is the basic concept of greed.
| Greedy bastards are the ones corrupting the system, not system corrupting itself, be them a politician, a crimminal, a ceo, a lawyer, whatever, as long as there is people willing to ruin someone else's life for some extra benefits there will always be exploitation and crime, no econimical system or social theory can fix that, thinking that the problems we have with resurce distribution, wealth balance and poverty are inherently capitalist is ignoring our history.
| >>359685 >>20dd9b
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>>359685 >>20dd9b
Everyone knows you're samefagging, retard. tl;dr
| >>359685 >>20dd9b
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Why are you responding to someone who's not even reading your posts? Clueless fucking samefag. Didn't read lol.
| >>832593 >Didn't read lol.
Did't know danger/u/ became reddit, at least learn how take an L, people like you the reason no one can have conversation online without it becoming a shit flinging contest.
| But whatever if thats all you have to say then I already know you dont have anything productive going on and I already won, have fun insulting nothing.
| Sometimes I wish the trolls would be more creative with their baits.
| Commie-san,
It's not inherent flaws in the concepts of capitalism or democracy that cause these issues. It's the same flaw in humanity that has insured no truly executed communist system has ever functioned at anything more than a community level.
And that flaw, that people in power always seek power, is why Russia likely will "invade" somewhere.
I think Putin will test NATO hard. If he thinks he can take another chunk of Ukraine w/out pushback, he will. >
| >
But, if he is convinced it will end in a costly war, they will likely shift focus and fold Belarus back into Russia instead.
NATO isn't formally sworn to defend Ukraine yet. Ukraine trying to maneuver into a position to join NATO is what started the whole thing, after all. The US and the UK are sworn to defend Ukraine through a separate agreement, which was sponsored by the UN.
>>
| >>
So, NATO the entity won't move against Russia so long as they confine the conflict to Ukraine. The US, UK, and UN requested troops probably will though.
And they would pretty much have to. Global conflicts have been kept to a low simmer for the last century by threat of the three great powers acting against anyone who attempts conquest by force. It's an open secret the UN is all but toothless, so if Russia can show the US as an unreliable supporter,
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it puts a whole network of defense treaties in jeopardy and practically guarantees at least partial global destabilization.
And if Putin could be sure that the US won't hold up their treaties, he'd already be at war. A weakened US & destabilized global politics is what he needs to increase Russia's strength on the international stage, and the lives lost & damage done are absolutely irrelevant to him.
| So by the same token, I'm almost positive the US will react with troops if Putin invades. To not do so would risk knocking down the house of cards civilization has been trying to build since ww2.
| >>832636
You basically say
>it's never a systemic flaw, the flaw is humaninty.
Which is a deeply misanthropic view. I'm a human too, and I do not suffer from these flaws - and i think this applies to most of us. It's always a few people who can't get enough on cost of the majority.
Unfortunately majority is often dumb as fuck and let them fool by the few profiteers. But this is no natural law, this is part of the game just like regression, stagnation, reforms and revolutions.
| >>832636
>And that flaw, that people in power always seek power
Except those who don't. The problem is that too many people to often acknowledge somehow those power hungry individuals - even if they are exploited by them. But there are changes from time to time, and they always will be, because there are people who are smart and brave enough to stand against the big shots in unity and solidarity.
| >>832636 >>832668 yep, that's what a lot of people need to realise, the real villains of the world are people, people who are power hungry and have no empathy, making sure that we select good leaders and authorities is key to healthy society, but let's be real no leader is perfetc and we will still have problems, working as a society will not prevent most of these troubles but it can make them way more bearable, this is why communism is an utopia, it requires too much good will.
| >>832666
Let me be more specific. It's a flaw inherent in the type of person that seeks out leadership positions.
We need people to lead in order to achieve communal goals, but the type of person willing to lead & direct is the type that will seek more power. Without fail. It's easy to wave off critique of humanity as 'misanthropic.
But there's no such thing as a good leader, not once you reach the level where the leader no longer has a personal relationship with the followers.
| Name 3 high level leaders who haven't abused their power or sacrificed their own people for power. I'll wait.
| >>832709
Kwame Nkrumah
Salvador Allende
Mohammad Mosaddegh
Sukarno
Patrice Lumumba
Ho-Chi-Minh
All of them were murdered and their efforts to establish progressive, secular, democratic al and civillian governments were destroyed brutally by the peace, liberty and democracy loving and bringing USA - with aid from any kind of racists, fascists, warlords and religious lunatics.
| >>832708
>communal goals
What communnal goals are you talking about? Regional ones? National ones? Are those communities defined by their religious believes or ethnicity? And is it legitimate to serve this purpose on cost of other communities?
Wouldn't a international union of mankind be the most significant and powerful one? And shouldn't this union be ruled by the people who work for it instead by non-democratically legitimized oligarchs?
| >>832728
Ho-chi minh wasn't murdered. But the US army murdered many viet people. Including civillians. Ho-chi minh was a good one, and vietnam could develop well without the often questionable western aid.
But it's still a dictatorship and also affected by the tendendcies towards more autocracy we have all over the world lately.
| >>832728
I'd also add other political leaders which were famous for not being corrupted or entirely driven by desire for power, including some non left-revolutionary/anti-USA ones:
Winston Churchill
Otto von Bismarck
Maximillien de Robesspierre
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Charles De Gaulle
michail gorbachev
As you see, people are able tho handle power properly. In my opinion bad leaders are just a projection of the bad people/society they lead, especially in democracies.
| >>832887
De Gaulle led France out of the NATO, because in his view it only served US-american interests in the first place and not french ones. And this was during the actual cold war.
Just to forge a bridge back to the original topic.
| >>833084 you talk as if they were living in nice cozy medow, look back at how soviet russia was they might as well stay.
| Also are you seriously going from thread to thread just to spam that?
| >>833088
At some they did never suffer from hunger again, did not kill each other in senseless wars for whacky clercis, "nobles", god chosen tyrants, imperialists and oligarchs.
Now they have the full program back again.
| >>833095
And then it immediately got fucked up because the system gives an advantage to charismatic murderers. Democracy is a terrible system, but nothing that's been attempted anywhere else is any better, and most of it is much worse.
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| https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/02/09/russia-ukraine-standoff-daily-briefing-feb-10-a76089
As per the rules, I posted a link here, but I haven't actually read this. Mostly I listened to the french RFI, and apparently talks between Macron and Putin has been going well, but the same can't be said for other NATO members.