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Universal Basic Income. What are your thoughts about it?
| It's interesting and in a way, I understand the logic of it if everything is automated and resources are relatively abundant. From a pol perspective, I am concerned that people will be incentivized into laziness and less activity.
| >>773430 Interesting indeed! About your comment, from a leftist accelerationist perspective, at this point of automation, can't we try to let the robots manage central points (but not all points) of society so everyone can relax a little more and be not worry about "laziness"?
| >>773430 That is a fair point but there is also the opposite right now, people working 2+ jobs just to get by. They aren't lacking the effort or anything. I for one think with at least some sort of safety net people would be able to seek out their passions more since their money wouldn't be paycheck to paycheck ideally.
| Think it has to be means tested so that wealthy folk dont get it. Not to mention a bunch potential price hikes in rent and other goods.
Feels like a feel good solution that tries to solve a bunch of systemic problem with a humble bundle.
| >>773441 wity central points I mean the economy, almost all kinds of the basic jobs, public jobs, Security and fight against Crimes, and maybe even health of the people, all that managed by robots and AIs.
Pd: Accelerationism is a pretty interesting ideology lmao
| >>773430 and there is also the quedtion of if it is economically viable, because we cant just print money to give to people while bots do everything and call it a day, eventually this would bite us back.
Because of basic oconomics the UBI could end up either impossible without a crisis or the money people get might not even be worth enough for basic neccecities.
| >Because of basic oconomics
Which basics are you refering to? Because I've studied economics and I can't make sense out of anything you just said.
| >>773496 if you have studied economics and still can not understant why giving money to everyone for free might eventually cause a crash then I suggest you take the course again.
| >>773523 basic stuff like why things have value, how money is just a representation of said value and how increasing the amount of money circulating without an exchange doesnt mean an increase in value but actually a decrease in the overall vaue of the currency as whole.
| Inflation 101, Universal basic income without some sort of work means that we are either printing money to give to people or distributing a set amount of wealth that when divided between billions of people is means almost nothing for an individual to cover their basic needs.
| >>9d8569
Uhhh I do think printing money is an issue that may cause inflation, but I also think that the super extra bonus productivity made by the automation of the jobs will make more money that can be taxed and collected from that.
So technically, there is no printed money that is "free" and given to the normal people, it would be money from taxes on the extra money produced by automation's efficiency.
| >>773530 but define extra, because technically that money that you are giving to the people is going to be spent in the products made by the mass automation, it creates a closed system and the natural tendencies of closed systems is to loose energy overtime, its not possible to generate more than you conssume.
| There is costs to mantain production, selling products and the left over money would be way less than half of the original earnings even if its all made by machines, pardon the analogy but its like trying to feed a cow with only their own milk, the more you repeat the cycle with no external sources the less nutirents the milk will have to be absorbed, and someone will need to work to pay the price for extra rations but who is willing to do it before the cow dies?
| And then comes the dillema, since there are suposeldy no jobs for everyone, who gets to work? And how much do the working people scrificing themselves for the sake of the system get? Do they get more than than the basic income? If so that thats not fair, they get an opportunity to earn more and hoard more resources to themselves becomming an elite who controls the whole system
| But if the dont recieve more compensation for their work whats the point working in the first place? Why study to get a degree and and work if you can get the same for just living? Now of course there would be people willing to work despite the lack of incentive but are they enough in numbers? Are they going to work hard enough? For how long are they going to work.
UBI (under the settings you gave) wouldnt work.
| There is a way to work but its sci-fi levels of technology which requires us to either break the rules of conservation of mass and entropy by making an infinite energy machine that creates matter and then manipulate that matter into other resources by atom manipulation, or find a way to ma ipulate the most abundant resource into other resources by atom manipulation which is more grounded but still super far from a real thing.
| I didn't support UBI until the pandemic happened and I realized UBI might have saved a lot of lives.
| >>773541 true if we did UBIs only in emergencies it could greatly reduce the overall stress of the population which helps a lot in the long run
| >>9d8569
Riiiiight... Not only are you completely oblivious of even the basics of the basics of how an economy works, your incoherent ramblings makes me 100% certain you're that guy who got pissy and derailed all of those threads.
I'm just gonna ignore your ID from now on.
| >>773439 >>773445
In every single trial that has been done for UBI, of which there aren't many, there have been no notable changes to peoples incentive for work. They didn't become less active nor did they become more active.
However, in every trial people experienced notable lower levels of stress, less problems with concentration, less health issues coupled with a more confident belief in their future lives and a more confident belief in their ability to affect society.
| There doesn't seem to be any negative effects for society if we implement a UBI or something similar, but there would be several positive ones.
Personally I think these results are great because it increases freedom and welfare while decreasing poverty and removes debt traps.
| >>773446
There's a term for what you're describing and it's Negative Tax. It's very similar to Universal Basic Income but there are some differences.
The most noticable difference is that it's, well, not universal. Only people under a certain income threshold will qualify for it. If you have no income you will recieve the full amount, and if you have some income but less than the threshold then you will recieve a partial amount etc.
| Some of the strong points of UBI is the simplicity and transparency of its system, without the need for any form of bureaucracy, monitoring or control.
>>773541
It saved lives, made people healthier and boosted Americas economy. If the same can be done with taxes instead of printing money then I see no reason why we shouldn't make it permanent.
Implementing demurrage and taxing the rich can pay for a UBI several times over. Easier said than done though...
| >>2d4437 another issue is that it seems to be uses as a way to consolidate other benefits into one so that they can be reduced overall.
Similar to universal credit
| >>773594
I'm not sure what event you're refering to since UBI has never been done outside of trials. Can you evaluate? Which country did what exactly?
| >>2d4437 just drawing a parallel to proposals of universal systems that end up undercutting things like disability, pensions and unemployment by getting rid of them in favour of a UBI type thing. Making it easier to underfund later down the line.
Also that's not true, I'm pretty sure a form of UBI exists in alaska and other countries/provinces.
| >>773609
I'm a bit confused. Why did you say UBI seems to be used as a way to reduce overall benefits when that has never happened?
| >>773609
The Alaska Permanent Fund is not UBI. It's similar in many aspects, yes, but to my knowledge no politican has ever tried to use the Alaska Permanent Fund to reduce overall benefits for alaskans either.
Instead the fund is responsible for Alaska being the state with the highest social equality and least amount of poverty in United States.
| >>2d4437 it was back during the yang gang days when he was proposing his version of ubi, there was comments about consolidation and i was just drawing a comparison between that and other programs like universal credit in the UK.
The ubi in Alaska only exists due to how wealthy it is. Oil money bb. I'm pretty sure its done more to keep a decent population there in the tundra.
That is to say UBI sounds nice but can be very easily twisted to do more harm than good.
| >>773622 pretty much,>>2d4437 is just going by the "in theory..." but is ignoring the variety of countries and the scale of the application, the more people there are participating the more is being spent, in small scales and short periods of time you can pretty much get always get positive results since yes a UBI in emergency cases is very much a good thing for country but it cant last forever.
| Stuff like giving universal unemployment, disability and poverty safety net in certain conditions is a much better for modern times since it foccuses more on the people who need a type of universal income.
| >>9d8569 there is an argument for mass ubi when automation nukes employment with the help from AI.
But people have been going on about that for awhile. It'll definitely happen, but maybe not even in my lifetime. Service industry still has teeth. But who knows, another pandemic and maybe my deliveroo bot will call me onichan.
| >>773622
I still don't understand why you said UBI seems to be used as a way to reduce overall benefits when that has never happened, but since you avoided to answer the question I won't ask it any more.
To my knowledge Andrew Yang never attempted to use UBI as an excuse to reduce other benefits to the American population. He proposed UBI as a replacement for some welfare programs because, well, that makes a lot of sense. You don't need social security money if you have UBI.
| >>773622
I'd argue that a Universal Basic Income would be less prone to corruption and tampering for reasons I stated earlier. UBI is by design empowered by its simplicity and transparency of its system, without the need for any form of bureaucracy, monitoring or control.
And while the Alaska Permanent Fund isn't a UBI(it's not universal, for one) it proved itself resistant to tampering back in 1999 when the state tried to remove it. 85% of the people voted for it to stay.
| >>773681 I didnt call it a theory, do you know the meaning of the expression "in theory"?
It doesnt call something a theory it jusy means that someone is using a set plan in a non conventional way with the expectation that it is going to give the same results as the if it was applyed normaly, and the succesful examples you gave of UBI were are not on a global scale which is what we are discussing here.
| >>2e4fa2
Wait, are you just >>9d8569 samefagging?
Didn't you respond to yourself earlier? For fuck's sake Midia-kun... get your shit together...
| >>773690
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/in+theory
>in theory
>according to a theory; theoretically. In theory, if I take my medicine regularly, I will get well. How things work in theory doesn't always match with how things work in reality.
Get a life, retard.
| >>773689 Im not smaefagging Im just not In my house anymore, different wifi changes the id, and I wanst pretending not to be>>9d8569, hell I even responed with the assumption people noticed I was >>9d8569 so you are getting angry for no reason
| >>773691
Dude, never respond to Midia-kun!! He doesn't know how to let go and *will* derail the thread to protect his fragile ego.
| >>773691 and global UBI is what? It was never tested beging with, saying that because UBI was cool in small scales and assuming that it can be used in a global one when there isnt any sort of backup plan or institution to managed such large operation is relying more on the on paper aspects than the real o aplication.
| >>773693 >>773691 are you 2 samefagging? Ciclejerking eachother is a pretty good sign of it.
Either way if you 2 are more worried about humilianting than debating, then I must be right.
| >>773698
In this case it's a tax for holding money, basically. If you stockpile wealth that you do not use you'll have to pay a percentage.
| >53 posts
>not one mention of c*mmunism
keep it up
New to thread so I'll just present my opinion.
The danger of UBI is one that is tied in to another phenomenon: Humans becoming obsolete.
Machines doing everything, AI rising, people becoming couch potatoes.
The danger of the absence of UBI is a facilitation of legalized slaving.
| Therefore, and as some strand of National-Socialist, my argument would be in favor of UBI AS LONG AS those people are being obligated to develop their abilities.
| Hard work is fulfilling and makes a person better. People must be faced with struggle and overcome it.
I can only think of the meme picture of one fat rich guy taking some money from the guy working with a shovel, "capitalism". Next to it a bunch of people being forced to work supervised by an armed guard, "c*mmunism".
And finally, a picture of a row of guys working without supervision, each carrying an AR, with cash in their back pockets. "National socialism"
| Which may be different from my interpretation, but my principles are that without UBI we may be insecure slaves, with UBI couch potatoes - UBI should come with manual labor.
| >>f7222a your point of view is interesting, although by my principles, Humans should not be obligated to do / to be something. In my point of view, we should use the UBI and the automation of the jobs, to be truly free. And if someone want to work/study, that's excellent! But it's not an obligation.
| ubi as an inevitable consequence of getting rid of low income work would be the humane thing to do. Along with some proper investment in education to get people ready for the new types of jobs that'll be in demand.
This isn't sim city tho so probably not.
| >>773812
>Humans should not be obligated to do / to be something
Maybe you misunderstood me as being too authoritarian and also as requiring manual labor only (bad wording) of course aiming to become academic elite is a virtuous goal.
It seems that in the end it is basically a decision of whether you surrender your liberty to corporations or the state...
| I don't like the nanny state / rat race dichotomy. I think that UBI should be a tool of human augmentation, and I think fulfilling individual potential is very important. I also look at systems like China where the CCP owns your life and I don't like it... Always look at things in the sense of slippery slope.
| So it would be good to not force people, for example for the UBI labor program to be voluntary, and people should be allowed to leave society and be left the fuck alone somewhere in a hut in the woods
| Education should be more invested in but in a purposeful manner. Like you invest into building a Navy Seal, you force them to augment their physical and intellectual capabilities.
Why are these programs wasted on warmongering?
There should be a program where people that enter it are guaranteed their basic needs and also forced to unleash their human potential. It should be on a "human investment" basis where they're on a contract afterwards or something.
| And when they get out they're part of an honorable citizen stratos or something, and are granted more freedom and guarantee of needs as well.
Maybe this is the Stellaris in me talking.
| >>773825 probably is, because not everyone likes to constantly have to up their game, different people have different needs.
| There is charm in the mundane too
| >>773826
Yeah, well, of course it's all voluntary. I don't really care about other people's lives that much
| >>773828 I understand where are your thoughts coming, but like>>2e4fa2 said, there' charm in the mundane, and I'm a kinda simple man, I'd like to live simple, and embracing nature with the commodities of modern technology.
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| Don't mind me, I'm bringing popcorn to enjoy the pol comments