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Cold war returns: Trump announced to leave nuclear disarmament agreement
| Welp, I guess it's time for all of us to get ready for the WW III
| Americans should protest against these decisions. Else, the world will think they are supporting them.
| Hold on.
I thought we never signed that
| Source?
| >>421676 >>421702
Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate-Range_Nuclear_Forces_Treaty
| country roooooads
take me hoooooome
| Here I am,thinking World War III is just a video game
| The Cold War being over was a Western delusion, just like certain Imperial Japanese soldiers, men like Putin have never stopped fighting.
| No major nation is going to be stupid enough to launch a nuke. Except a dipshit like Trump, but the order wouldn't actually be fulfilled.
| >>422497
It was the west that continued cold war, fooled Gorbachev, destroyed Yugoslavia, fucked up the middle and near east, etc.
Putin is no antagonist or alternative to "the west". He just is a step further to nazism, fascism and imperialism than his western partners.
| I think that world is under cold war from development of nuke and propaganda. If you look at Doomsday Clock and what time it was showing, you could understand that we are always under danger of nuke winter. If people don't say to nuke "no", so it means that a danger of nuke war will be always a topic.
| >>422912
Gorbachez was a fool for thinking the USSR could survive without the communist party, & Yugoslavia was always poised to tear itself in ethnic conflict. And seriously, the American war in Afghanistan grew out of our efforts in the Soviet-Afghan War, the Mid East is a Cold War era mess but not a continuation therof in its own right.
| The problem is that the west that dumbly expected that Asian powers would just democratize themselves in any sincere sense of the word. We saw hope in the collapse of the USSR & in our relief we hurried to believe the issue had been closed, & then turned to collateral issues like the Taliban & the post-Yugoslav Balkans.
| >>423370
You also had protests during Vietnam war. Did it stop it? No, but it improved your music and film industry. There also were protests against the latest Iraq war. Did it stop it? No, but it improved your music and film industry.
You gain money by leading wars and you gain money by protesting against it. But it seems you don't gain money by not leading wars in the first place and doing diplomacy instead.
| You guys do know the agreement never meant anything anyway right? That it was just theatrics to quell the growing public dislike for the nuclear threat? That no sane world leader would ever give up the influence a nuclear arsenal allows?
| >Two minutes till midnight
| >>423598
>You guys do know the agreement never meant anything anyway right?
Stupid statement, because you could say this on ANY agreement.
>That it was just theatrics to quell the growing public dislike for the nuclear threat?
So what do you suggest? Start living with and loving this supposedly unavoidable threat instead? Having no agreements at all because they are all nothing but theatrics in the end?
>sane world leader
There is no such a thing.
| >>424248
Live knowing there is very little you can do about it. Only the mentally retarded would willingly disarm themselves voluntarily.
| >>424411
>Live knowing there is very little you can do about it.
I don't think so. There are anti-armament movements and there is the idea of international solidarity. I don't want to live in the sad world you abandon yourself.
>Only the mentally retarded would willingly disarm themselves voluntarily.
I think the mentally retarded are those who believe there is any sanity in arms race. Especially for nuclear weapons it is also in the upperclass interest to avoid using them.
| >>424443 Not the fellow you've been speaking with here, but it seems evident to me that if people want nuclear weapons they will have nuclear weapons, & no amount of protest or discouragement will ever change that. See DPRK.
Mutually assured destruction precludes the singular annihilation of either side assuming that the actors proceed with some semblance of rationality. It is the in my estimation the single most significant reason we haven't yet seen WWIII.
| >>424476
>no amount of protest or discouragement will ever change that.
This is maybe what insane leaders and their mad military strategist want to make people believe: resitance is furtile. I don't believe that bullshit. And I'm not afraid of the DPRK, where people btw. aren't allowed to protest. The story of the mad evil "communist" rocket man in the DPRK and the
brave, honest, sane and patriotic world liberators and democratizors are nothing but equally stupid propaganda lies.
| >>424490
The difference is, that here I can openly argue and protest against it, which would be pointless if things like nuclear arms race really would naturally unavoidable.
| >>424476
>Mutually assured destruction precludes the singular annihilation of either side assuming that the actors proceed with some semblance of rationality. It is the in my estimation the single most significant reason we haven't yet seen WWIII.
If things go on we will soon have WWIII. Not only nuclear armory is increasing but also oldschool stuff plus computer aided and digital warfare. The "mutually assured destruction" (MAD) became obsolete in multipolar world order.
| And we already are at a world war which was never really ended since the industrial revolution. This war is not between nations, cultures or religions but between classes. It can be and is channelled in those things thought. Btw. a prominent representant of the upper class already openly called the existing class war by the name and he was convinced his class will win.
| Take Israel for example. Their "Samson Option" states that should they ever be invaded or attacked in a full-scale assault, they plan to nuke most of the big cities in Europe. This essentially holds innocent people hostage to ensure the survival of Israel. Go tell them to give up their nukes, I'm sure they won't laugh at you.
| >>424659
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option
Sorry, what part about this is a lie? It isn't a theory, it has been confirmed by Israel. Educate yourself, retard.
| >>424692
"Israel refuses to confirm or deny it has nuclear weapons or to describe how it would use them, an official policy of nuclear ambiguity, also known as "nuclear opacity." This has made it difficult for anyone outside the Israeli government to describe the country's true nuclear policy definitively, while still allowing Israel to influence the perceptions, strategies and actions of other governments"
-The very link you posted you idiot!
| AND THIS SHIT DOESN'T EVEN ANSWER WHY ANY NATION NEEDS NUKES! like let's say Israel is stupid enough to nuke its allies. What we're going to do about it? Nuke them back and kill even more innocents?
Can't the people in Israel protest against their nuclear armaments as well and end this madness?
Politicians will just hide in their bunkers while their nations get consumed in hellfire. They won't give a rats ass about "mutual assured destruction"
| >>424753
No, it confirms it. What they have not officially confirmed is the extent of their nuclear arsenal, which is a good strategy. No one should know what or how much you have, usually the threat is enough to force "diplomacy"
| >>424757 Point taken. Israel *could* shoot nukes at its European allies.
But again this just proves out point of how mindlessly destructive nuclear weapons are. Every nation should disarm instead of waiting for another to fire its arsenal. And its out duty to fight for that any way we can instead of saying "It's fiiiiiine."
| >>424759
I understand your point, it would be verrryyyy nice to not have to worry about that. What I'm saying is they never would, and even if they say they did it would obviously be a lie. You don't give up weapons like that, you just don't.
| >>424785
I would, because everything else seems insane to me. I rather get nuked than nuke others. A live that only exist by taking other lives has no worth to me. I want to live from my own hands and brain and not on top of a mountain of corpses.
| >>424862
Your expectations are like those of a small child. You cannot live like that, every time you wash your hands you are killing billions.
| >>424870
Ah, my expectations are childish, but people arguing with the size of their red button and threatening others to physically destroy them are so mature, so wise adults. No, to me they are the ones with kindergarten behavior.
>every time you wash your hands you are killing billions.
Don't be ridiculous. I value ethical aspects in my low consume behaviour and I believe that a better world is possible, even if people like you zealously bow to every bullshit as necessary evil.
| >>424497
Sure, when the working class get nukes or start to storm the beaches of Los Angelos I'm sure Trump & co. will be quaking in their boots.
You're also saying that you wouldn't protest if it were pointless, like people never attempt fruitless endeavors. You simply refuse to believe it could be pointless.
| >>425026
Putting aside your notions of utopia for a moment, in the real world diplomacy isn't about everyone getting along & basking in sunshine & rainbows. Perhaps you're some sort of supercharitable altruistic ubermensch, but the rest of the human race are mostly selfish bitches pursuing our own gain. If you've been dealing with us without threat of force, that explains why you've made so little headway in your 200 year phoney war.
| >>425475
No the working class has different options. The rise of right extremists is an expression of class warfare (even thought in its worst and most stupid form). Trumps rhetoric includes, similiar to the german nazis in weimar, anticapitalist and globalisation critical arguments. This is how he manages to fool and mobilize a huge ammount of the working class even for his in fact capitalist agenda. He just points outside the border, saying them "there are the enemies" and ...
| >>425475
... scapegoats minorities and some single evil doers controlling them.
>You simply refuse to believe it could be pointless.
It's better to have loved and lost, then never to have loved at all.
Also I don't know if things become better whe we try to change them, but at least we have to try to change them to make it better.
>>425477
Your attempt making fun of me is very pityful. I'm not that naive you think I am. I know that society is how it is, but I know that it can be
| >>425477 >>425553
changed, it will be changed and is has to be changed. You are the one who is stucked in a religious alike self betrayal that there are no alternatives because your questionable imaginations about "human nature". I agree that free will has it's limits but for me the most important limitation is by technology AND not to forget economy. If people are treated like animals, they'll behave like animals. This can be very self destructive regarding our technology.
| >>425547
Most people don't have a problem with capitalism. The solution to capitalism-based woes is not communism unless you really want to commit another mass genocide like the last few times.
| >>425691
>Most people don't have a problem with capitalism.
They have, they just don't know it because they get served with distractions like nationalism, racism and religious fundamentalism. If capitalism was such i great thing, this things wouldn't exist or at least decrease. It's the opposite case: They increase. Again.
>The solution to capitalism-based woes is not communism
The solution to capitalism-based woes is not waiting for solving its problems itself magically, unless...
| >>425691 >>425857
.. you really want to commit another mass genocide like the last few times.
>unless you really want to commit another mass genocide like the last few times.
Your ever repeating the old stories from stalinism, maoism and other catastrophes as the only mentionable associations with the idea of "communism" seems to me just like a lame excuse to defend capitalism zealous from any kind of critique like a religious dogma.
| >>425691
Are you that blind to see, that history already is about repeating itself somehow? Do you think the ongoing rise of religious fundamentalists, nationalists and racists are just a unlucky coincidence that have nothing to do with capitalism? How can't you see, that all over the world societies become more and more splittet between the poor and the rich, while the last ones are ignorant to this development and the first ones run after wacky demagogues?
| National socialism lifted Germans out of abject poverty. It had become the whore capital of Europe because mothers and their daughters had to suck dick to feed themselves. That the holocaust happened is just repeating the same old stories when the holocaust has nothing to do with national socialism it was just a mistake. We should continue to try National Socialism because true National Socialism has never been tried.
| >>425943
>National socialism lifted Germans out of abject poverty.
But this was only possible because of a inhumane economic speculation: The nazis financed their temporary success over the (capitalist) economic crisis by assuming they would conquer europe and disown, enslave or kill people who they consider to be from a "lower origin" especially jews and slavs. If they had succeeded, they would still have to face capitalism which they never really surpassed itself, because ...
| ... they may called themselves national "socialists", but in fact they weren't really anti-capitalists. They just needed to disguise as socialists to win the labour masses being framed in a democracy. If you look exactly on the nazi ideology you will note, that they didn't had a problem with capitalism itself. They differed between bad "jewish international" capitalism and good "national germanic capitalism". Other than the communist and socialist movements, the nazis got...
| ... much support from industrialists, even from those in countries that later become mayor enemies, like the USA and the UK.
>>425943
That the holocaust happened is just repeating the same old stories when the holocaust has nothing to do with national socialism it was just a mistake.
Well, you're right when you say that nazism and fascism are not neccecarly connected to antisemitism. But you're not right saying the german nazis holocaust was an accident...
| It was a purposely announced and planned crime, already described in Adolf Hitlers book "Mein Kampf", which he wrote sitting in jail. But even in an alternate universe where the nazists wouldn't have been antisemitic, they still had to start a world war because their estate was bankrupt from financing all the economic programmes, which significantly were war preparations like increasing steel industry, expanding railroad and road network and increasing population (=cannon fodder)
| >We should continue to try National Socialism because true National Socialism has never been tried.
I can't imagine any form of "National Socialism", no matter if true or false, that fits into a globalized world.
By the way, also stalinism could be seen as "National Socialism" too, because he broke with the idea of internationalism and world-revolution in favor of "socialism in one country". A lot of real-"socialist" estates had in fact many fascist/nazist characteristics, such as
| ...militarism, autocratism, leader-cult, and nationalism. This had a lot to do with the circumstances where socialist movements came into power: Usually it were countries that were massively behind in technological and socially development. They had almost no industry and often either still retarded feudal elites in power or were dominated by the industrialized nations, which they had nearly no influence to and where no socialist revolutions occured.
| So, the socialist movements just took the role of bourgeois development dictatorships driving on industrialization and/or as national liberation movements against more advanced colonional powers. This was a development Marx, Engels and their followers did not foresaw (they were scientists after all and no prophets). In general they were way to optimistic and underestimated drastically the temporal and global dimensions of history (and stupidity of people).
| But to conclude that Marx, Engels & Co. were fundamentally wrong about everything and capitalism is the one and only, unavoidable and best of all ways to organize economy is really stupid.
And comparing nazist/fascist ideology with the ideas of socialims/communism is also pretty ridiculous but unfortunately an effictive way of the bourgeois class to immunize themselves from critique and their responsibility for the rise of nazism/fascism.
| >>426089
That is not what Hitler planned for the rest of Europe at all, it's a conspiracy theory told by governments to jusifty destroying Natsoc Germany.
>>426100
Have you read Mein Kampf? He doesn't talk about that kind of plan at all. He just correctly identifies that a majority of influential people who were responsible for Germany's terrible deal post-ww1 were Jewish, as were a lot of communist organisers. He says they need to fight Jewish supremacy, not exterminate people.
| >>426156
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
This isn't the kind of deal a genocidal maniac makes. He just wanted them out of Germany because he saw them as a negative influence that had their own group interests in mind rather than those of Germany as a whole. Try to argue that Jews don't have a high in-group preference that excludes most of their host country, I'll have a good laugh.
| To be honest, mot of the "final solution" was himmlers idea anyways. Hitler signed off on it, sure. But it was himmlers brainchild.
| >>426160
>This isn't the kind of deal a genocidal maniac makes.
So you want to say us there was no genocide at all planned and executed by hitler and his henchmen?
>He just wanted them out of Germany because he saw them as a negative influence that had their own group interests in mind rather than those of Germany as a whole.
So this justifies putting people in death camps to you?
Also meanwhile it's obvious that there are many ideologic parallels between zionists and nazists.
| >>426156
>That is not what Hitler planned for the rest of Europe at all
Wrong. In "Mein Kampf" there is written, that "jewish-bolshewism" must be annihilated, which was strongly connected to the "Lebensraum" (=habitat) ideology and finally lead to the "Vernichtungskrieg" (=annihilation war) against the USSR.
>it's a conspiracy theory told by governments to jusifty destroying Natsoc Germany.
Hahaha. As a german i can say you, we are pretty glad that "Natsoc Germany" was destroyed.
| >>426283
Yes, I'm sure if Hitler had knowledge of this evil secret plans by Himmler, he would have stoped him, because he loved the jews so much and was such a reasonable friend of humanity. LOL
| >>426464
As a German you have been subject to decades of denazification brainwashing (don't try to argue bit isn't) and are frankly a bunch of little pussies compared to your ancestors. What Hitler accomplished in such a short time was absolutely beautiful but I see that Weimar approaches again and your masters won't let you slip through the yoke a second time.
Also, the holocaust didn't happen but it should have.
| >>426525
You are a poor pitiable creature, either because you really believe the BULLSHIT you wrote or because you are just a troll rubbing your thing off if people take it serious. If the first case applies, then I stop the conversation to you, because you cannot be fixed.
In the last case, I would like to know why people like you do have to ruin a serious conversation with such behavior? What's the point of it? Does it give you satisfaction?
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| Finally the last glimmer of hope dies, that was left from the early 90s euphoria after the soviet unions break off, facing the harsh reality of todays global capitalisms hegemony. Instead the promised era of peace and wealth all the bad things known from the past come back. Not only racism, nationalism and religious fundamentalism becoming again an increasing scourge to humanity but also stupid nuclear arms race. Is there any chance to stop this kind of madness this time?