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Did you know that some languages don't have different words for sex and gender?
| The influence of language never ceases to amaze me.
| I did find out recently that the word for "race" is not really used in France.
The reason is, "race" shares the same connotation as saying something like "breed" of doggo, so to refer to people by race in France is the equivalent of calling someone an animal.
| The english vocabulary is a mixture of germanic (angle-saxon & scandinavian), celtic, roman (latin & french) words. This and the fact that the en. language never was seriously standardized, is the reason why there is such a huge vocabulary but also lots of irregularities when it comes to declinations.
Also the british empire had colonies all over the world, which not only made en. the dominant world-language, but also extended it with foreign words and concepts.
| In linguistics there're heavy and fundamental debates if there are things like a general/universal gramatic/semantic, equivalence of different languages (translation) and how much and in which way they have a (different?) influence of the way people think and act (linguistic relativity).
| >Like labour is creating something while work is just doing something.
Which is also kind of interesting for the Marxist left.
Not really. World perception is superstructure, which is determined by the economic circumstances (the basis). So it's assumed that languages serves as a universal and equal tool for dialectic (the transition layer between superstructure and basis).
Also (historical) materialism would rather agree to: "A language is only a dialect with an army and a navy."
| In Estonian 'she' and 'he' is the sane word.
| >>393495 did you read Stalin's work on linguistics? Its surprisingly good. https://tinyurl.com/l5gljxs
| >>393576
I'll have look on it. A bad practise does not automatically imply bad theory (it's the other way arround) Also, stalin was not born as a monster. He was created by the tsarist regime.
Btw. I wonder how many words children in pakistan and afghanistan have for "drone attack"...
| And only Russian language has this shit where two words written the same fucking way mean 2 absolutely different things. For example замок (zamok) has the meaning of lock and castle at the same time.
| >>393583
Are you kidding? In german it's exactly the same:
"Schloss" means lock and castle.
In german this phenomenon is called "Teekesselchen", which is a "Teekesselchen" itself, since it means "tiny tea-boiler" and "ambiguous word" (the phenomenon you described here) at the same time.
| Btw. and interesting fact which is questioning the effect of gender-mainstreaming.
As most of you should know the purpose of gender-mainstreaming is not only to piss of conservatives and the far-right, it's also reasoned with the highly questionable/discussed linguistic-relativism, which >>d0947b mentioned. The idea is, that changing the language will have an effect on reality, e.g. that more women become interested in technical, academical and political work if they are ...
| >>393614
... linguistically included. Now the intersting fact:
Iceland has one of the highest gender equalities (between man and women), also in their parliament. Now the interesting fact: The representatives of the icelandic parliament (=Althing) are called "Thingmen" (plural "Thingman"). So, somehow Iceland managed to achieve a real gender-equality without gender-mainstreaming language-politics.
Maybe more materialism and less structuralism would make the political left better.
| >>393583 There are words in Spanish with 50 different meanings. Even in English, there are words like "bark". How is it a Russian thing? Or confusing at all, given the context for the words?
| Ras en seks
| Did you know some languages only identify people, places, and things as male or female. That such language have no room for "non binary genderless fluidity" nonsense?
| >>393583
Worse, in English there're words that are pronounced the same but are poetic or even complete antonyms (eg, you raise a building or raze it).
| >>393495
The suggestion that linguistic differences are superficial in dialectic transition of paradigms simply defies reason.
It's a rather extreme example, but there's an indigenous language in South America that doesn't have words for time or history. I can't imagine that wouldn't impair people's ability to grasp dialectic communism, let alone transmit the revolution.
| I'd really like it if people mentioned at least once in their post what country they're talking about, that'd really help understanding the politics they're referring to...
| >>393621
For example what country's "political left" was it that you mentioned at the end of the post. I'm kinda confused :/
| >>393145
Am I understanding you right that you are suggesting that since some languages do not have a word that is in English, the entire concept must be invalid? Because that might actually be the dumbest thing I've heard all day, and I've heard a lot of stupid shit today.
| >>394736
I'm sure the indigenous language speakers live isolated in some kind of stoneage-communism society. As soon they start developing technology for production (or it's introduced to them), their society and language will change/evolve.
| >>395094
Oh, it's a global phenomenon that most of the political left gave up on the idea of historical materialism after the dissolution of the USSR. So they concentrated to fight on real world issues like gender inequality and discrimination of minorities on a pretty superficial level like language politics (e.g. gender-mainstreaming). The recent rise of the political right all over the world should be a warning that this is the wrong way as the core issue, capitalism, remained.
| >>395096 don't be triggered libcuck lmao
I just wanted to show an interesting concept which may explain a big divide in internet political discussions. Mainly identity politics.
>>395104
I believe that they threw dialectal materialism out for identity politics. And this tendency was absorbed by capitalism, which in turn didn't bring any changes.
While the far right is rediscovering identity politics.
Just look at the name of the identitarian movement lmao
| And its working better for the right than the left.
Nah I'm not 100% against identity politics, I just believe that the approach of the American liberal left is the false one.
| >>395299
It's just not very interesting in spite of the pseudo-intellectual circlejerk it started. Literally every language has words that dont directly translate. How many languages dont have a word that translates to schadenfreude? How many languages dont have a word that translates to ennui? The implication that discussing the difference between one's biological sex and the cultural traits associated with them is invalid since otherlanguages don't differentiate them is asinine.
| >>395907
It's not about having words or not. It's about if the concept exists. So it's about semantics. But hey, the world is globalized so any concept will find it's way into other cultures. Often they even lend the word directly.
Before the American continent was discovered in Europe and Asia people didn't know chocolate. And know all over the world people use an aztecan word for it: xocolatl.
| >>395917
Yet see the titular argument that many modern languages (even European) still have no distinct word for gender.
It is about the words. The ability to propagate a concept is predicated on the ability to either convey or inspire it. The former is dependent upon having the words to do so & the latter upon eloquence with the words you have, & it helps if you don't have to rely on peoples' eloquence just to convey the idea that there might, say, be more to gender than biology.
| This is kind of a philosophical thing, not so much /new/s
| Philosophy, sociology & politics are somehow three sides of the same coin.
| >>395983
>>395917
You might as well argue existentialism didn't exist until the 19th century since that's when the first existential philosophers put their thoughts on paper, as if the philosophy hasn't existed nameless since we could reason. Theres no English word for schadenfreude but the concept of taking joy in another's suffering has existed since biblical times. Whether or not there is a sight word to explain it or not is irrelevant as to whether the concept is understood
| >>396419
But there are innumerable concepts which have not existed since time immemorable or which are culturally distinct. The distinction between gender & sex is one of these.
Furthermore the whole point of my argument was that concepts are harder to -convey- without specific language.
| Or are you suggesting it wouldn't at all undermine conversations about lgbt rights & gender issues in general if there were only the word 'sex' to use for both biology & mentality? You see what ensues when people confuse the two.
| >>396434
Culture and language are no constants. They change/develop in an evolutionary way:
- by mutation
- by recombination
- by selection
The so often mentioned piraha language from the indegenious amazon tribe, which was mentioned by >>394736 , will either recombine, mutate or die out (OR at some point it may turn out that their restrictions are an evolutionary advantage, so that their language will survive, while others will die out. You never know)
| Niggers don't have a gender so that makes sense.
| >>396434
What I'm saying is that the lack of a district word for a concept does not necessarily prove the lack of acknowledgment of said concept. Mental illnesses like depression and schizophrenia have been observed for ages, but the definition of them as a medical problem is new. Similarly, the distinction between sex and gender is not new even if it's discussion in the western mainstream is.
| >>396817
I don't think "gender", as a word, expresses anything related to how one sexually identifies.
I understand that the terminology is quite recent.
Regardless, you also have to remember there are words that have a very particular meaning when used in different fields.
Gender in social science is gender in social science. The word has a conventional meaning in social science. The word also has a more widely used, but still specific meaning, that's used in grammar.
| All of this to say I'm not gonna assume you're talking about the whole "gender is not sex" gender, when I've mostly used the very common euphemism for "sex", and also the grammar notion. But I've never studied sexology or idkwtf...
If you talk to a random g/u/rl, chances are you're assuming definitions based on the topic. And if the random g/u/rl hasn't studied the topic... Well: conflict.
| The problem does not lie in the definitions, but in the assumptions we make when debating.
| 00d65f Not only Russian(I'm native in Russian). For example, Japanese based on homonyms. That's why they have tried 10 times(somewhere about) to put away Kanji(Chinese hieroglyphs), but when ministry of education find it out, they understand why Kanji must be left alone in Japanese. Because they will not understand each other if they will use only hiragana and katakana(I've tried to read it, so believe me, it's unreadable).
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| So sometimes people are just thinking completely different and shout something about sjw.
Because in their world there is no difference between gender and sex.
Which is probably why there are so many sjw in English populated countries.
Also there are languages where there aren't different words for labour and work.
Like labour is creating something while work is just doing something.
Which is also kind of interesting for the Marxist left.